Financial Tools for Mexico's Fragmented Freight Industry | Jaime Tabachnik, Co Founder & CEO of Solvento

In this conversation, Mack Meyer and Jaime Tabachnik discuss the inception and growth of Solvento, a company focused on solving liquidity issues in the freight industry. Jaime shares his background in the logistics sector, the challenges faced in building relationships and securing funding, and the innovative solutions Solvento is implementing to address the fragmented nature of the carrier market in Mexico. They also touch on the importance of team dynamics and the lessons learned throughout the entrepreneurial journey.

Chapters

00:00
Intro

03:46
Inspiration for Solvento

06:49
Navigating Family Business Dynamics

08:03
How a Pitch Competition Launched Solvento

12:45
Has the Vision Changed since that Kellogg Pitch Event?

13:28
Solvento's First Customers

15:42
Challenges in Carrier Liquidity and Underwriting

18:56
The Role of Digitalization in Freight

20:55
The Freight Ecosystem

24:43
Future Growth and Product Development

25:00
Hyper Fragmentation: Freight Carriers in Mexico

26:30
Underwriting Through Carrier's Customer

29:48
Geopolitical Challenges & Domestic Freight Market

32:39
Solvento's Product & Growth Roadmap

34:25
Final Thoughts

38:18
Outro

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Transcript

Mack Meyer (00:42)
Hey, Jaime, how are you? Thanks for joining.

Jaime Tabachnik (00:44)
I'm good, Mack How are you, man?

Mack Meyer (00:46)
All good on my end. think when I think of people that know and understand the freight industry, especially nationally and in the Mexican US corridor, there's a short list that's maybe above you or maybe you're at the top. So I'm looking forward to digging into some of the nuances and hearing your expertise.

Jaime Tabachnik (01:03)
Appreciate it, man. It's always a pleasure talking to you.

Mack Meyer (01:06)
So I think first it would help to kind of jump into the inception story of Solvento and your background and how this really shaped your thesis for what you were going to do and serve when it comes to the Mexican freight industry. You were the COO and CRO of Tamex a national leader in electrical materials and equipment with over 24 locations across Mexico. Was this where some of the early key challenges you face in distribution of logistics

laid the foundation or was there another experience as well?

Jaime Tabachnik (01:34)
Yeah, absolutely. So definitely my time at Tamex is the foundation to my passion to solve the problem that we're solving at Solvento. So Tamex is a family-owned business that was founded by my father. So I got the great opportunity of joining very young with little professional experience or a small professional experience, one.

And I was trusted with the main distribution center management when I was very young, 23 years old. And I was very lucky also that they trusted me to lead the implementation of technology all across the supply chain and the operation of the company. So I got very deep into warehousing, trucking, inventory optimization.

Mack Meyer (02:15)
So I got very deep into warehousing, trucking, inventory optimization,

Jaime Tabachnik (02:22)
order management

Mack Meyer (02:23)
order...

Jaime Tabachnik (02:23)
and the different parts that make a supply chain move. And that's where I really got passionate about logistics. So that was definitely the foundation. Then when I decided to leave the family business, thanks to the network that I had built in the Freight Tech space, I got an offer to join a CEO of

Mack Meyer (02:24)
the different parts that make a supply chain move. And that's where I really got...

Mm-hmm.

Jaime Tabachnik (02:49)
early stage company that was building a digital brokerage or marketplace on the road

trade space. I was hired as CEO and that was what ended up giving me the inspiration to start Solvento alongside my co-founders because I was trapped in between the cashflow issues.

Mack Meyer (03:07)
Yeah.

Jaime Tabachnik (03:13)
that exists in this space. So by being and living and breathing that problem every day, that's how I ended up concluding that I needed to solve this.

Mack Meyer (03:19)
Yeah.

And before we kind of jump into the Sovento part, the family business part is intriguing to me because I think there's a lot to learn. But then there's this concept of people saying, well, this is not mine. I want to start my own thing. But also this amazing thing where you can carry on the legacy. How did you balance that? And in Mexico, it's hard to grow your business, as you know, and I've observed.

Jaime Tabachnik (03:44)
I think.

there is a bag of feelings that come with having an opportunity like that. Because I think it's an incredible lock and opportunity to have a successful family business that you're invited to join. And family businesses

Mack Meyer (03:48)
Mm-hmm.

Jaime Tabachnik (04:06)
are obviously disorganized in a lot of cases and have growing pains and have family relationship issues. But in the end, think the most

important thing is that they give family members opportunities that potentially you would need a longer time to have at another company, at another place. So I was lucky that I was able to take advantage of that and be trusted with enormous responsibilities very early in my career, which I think

Mack Meyer (04:24)
with me for a longer time.

Jaime Tabachnik (04:40)
It was a key part of accelerating my knowledge, my understanding of a particular space, et cetera. working with family is extremely hard.

Mack Meyer (04:44)
Yeah.

Jaime Tabachnik (04:49)
Mack it's not for everyone. And in the end, after seven years, I took the decision to leave. Not necessarily because I had the...

Mack Meyer (04:51)
in the end after seven years.

Jaime Tabachnik (04:57)
necessity of owning something. But I did have enough of an understanding that I needed to be more free. And I need to make my own mistakes and my own learnings and like go through that journey that my father went to build.

Mack Meyer (05:01)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Jaime Tabachnik (05:17)
the company that he had been able to build, I knew I needed those scars. And I needed to kind of hold that umbilical cord. And potentially, and I always have been clear about the possibility of coming back one day, but with so much more value to be added because of the risks and journey I decided to take on my own.

Mack Meyer (05:23)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah.

was going to ask that question. think it's interesting. You're at an age and point where you have an opportunity to start something your own. And who's to say that you can't go back at 50 or 60 and provide some type of advisory role? Very interesting you point that out. So going into your time during your MBA, and then if I remember when I first met you, you mentioned, Mack we won this competition or this grant. And that was basically the seed or you could say angel money at some point to start Solvento

share that and then we can kind of get into how you met Billy and Pedro and then you're off and on your way.

Jaime Tabachnik (06:13)
Yeah, yeah. So I've been friends with Pedro and Billy for a long time. Fun fact about our story or our history that Pedro and Billy's father built another electrical supply distributor in Mexico that was my father's biggest

But the mutual friends brought us close and we built a relationship. became close friends. And Pedro and Billy had started a credit business. They were lending through payroll in the private sector in Mexico. And while I was at Bill Logistics leading this company and I was doing my MBA,

I approached Pedro and Billy and I shared with them the pain I was going through. So, and I told them, guys, I think there's a huge opportunity here. I don't know, you guys are in the credit space. Maybe you know someone that is addressing this pain point or that understands how to solve this. And they told me they had no idea and that they were like, didn't understand the risks and the idiosyncrasies of freight. So they also couldn't be helpful.

Mack Meyer (07:15)
Mm-hmm.

Jaime Tabachnik (07:17)
like in providing me a solution.

Mack Meyer (07:18)
Mm-hmm.

Jaime Tabachnik (07:20)
And then that conversation continued and like we ended up saying, and I ended up pulling it, why don't we do it? And that started getting the creative fluids flowing. And luckily, like, don't truly remember if it was in the middle of a conversation we were having, but I received an email from Kellogg from my university.

Mack Meyer (07:25)
Yeah.

Jaime Tabachnik (07:41)
inviting me to a venture competition and the requirements were sending a short executive summary of the idea of the business and short video. And I showed the invitation to Pedro and I said, hey guys, like we have this idea. think we complement each other because of my knowledge on the freight and logistics space and your knowledge on the credit.

Mack Meyer (07:48)
executive summary of the idea of the business and short I show the invitation to get a copy and say, hey guys, we this idea. think complement each other because of my.

Jaime Tabachnik (08:06)
and financial space. we don't have anything to lose. Why don't we participate? We send, we create this executive summary and a video, which I have that video here and it's hilarious. And we sent it just also to organize our ideas with not a lot of expectations. We send it and we ended up being selected to participate in the competition. So we said, okay, let's, let's do it. And very long story short, we end up winning.

Mack Meyer (08:23)
We ended up being selected.

Jaime Tabachnik (08:31)
which we entered without having a lot of expectations and we want a price of $160,000. So that was huge. That gave us a lot of confidence. yeah, that was an offer me of confidence boost to quit my job, join full time and also for Pedro and Billy to decide on pivoting from and wind down what they were doing for us.

Mack Meyer (08:38)
Wow. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Jaime Tabachnik (08:56)
to focus on what Solvento is today. And also because of that competition, we were introduced to an amazing mentor whose name is Rick Zullo He has his own venture capital firm called Equal Ventures. And he advised us through the competition. then when I perfectly he told me, hey, guys, you have a real world business. Don't.

Mack Meyer (09:07)
Mm-hmm.

Jaime Tabachnik (09:17)
worry a lot about winning the competition, but you guys should pursue this idea. And after we won the competition, he helped us with some introductions. And I don't know if it was probably a couple months later, we had a term sheet for a million and a half million dollars to start building and tractioning. it all happened so fast. Yeah, we stumbled upon it. I had very little idea about the venture capital space.

Mack Meyer (09:26)
Yeah.

Wow.

In some ways it's great.

Yeah.

Jaime Tabachnik (09:46)
and what I was getting into, to be completely honest.

Mack Meyer (09:47)
⁓ exactly.

Doublehead short. When you watch the video again, do you laugh and go, the vision is still the same? Or was your pitch like, no, what was I saying?

Jaime Tabachnik (09:51)
Yeah, 100%.

No, think it's like it was very generic, naive, but I think the vision is still very aligned to solving the liquidity issues in the on the road trade space. And that's what we pitched at the moment. Obviously, we have no idea of a lot of the challenges that we would have to go through to get to where we are today.

Mack Meyer (10:11)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Jaime Tabachnik (10:22)
the other set of challenges that we already recognize are in front of us. But I think that the mission and the vision of the company keeps being and stays very true to that first video and executive summary.

Mack Meyer (10:35)
Yeah. So you guys get the term sheet. I guess you close this, this initial round of like over a million dollars. It's just pretty impressive. It commends to you, your background and your team's background, your co-founders. How'd you get your first adopters? Did you call up people in your network and say, Hey, this is what I'm doing. And

Jaime Tabachnik (10:52)
Yes.

Yeah, so the first iterations of our product, we leverage my network that I build through my years in Tamex And we actually sign up.

Mack Meyer (11:01)
Mm-hmm.

Jaime Tabachnik (11:05)
leveraged what we call load generators, which include any type of shipper or distributor or three PLL brokers or any entity or company that hires and aggregates on the road freight suppliers, trucking companies. we, the peach at that time was we're going to help you have a more loyal and trustworthy trucker base.

Mack Meyer (11:14)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Jaime Tabachnik (11:27)
how we're going to do that, giving them liquidity so they can keep their trucks moving. And the way we did it at that time was we talked to a shipper and they gave us access to their carrier base. And we went one by one explaining and selling the product. And I did that all by myself. I literally talked to the owner operators explaining. And it was very tough because

Mack Meyer (11:32)
Moving.

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Jaime Tabachnik (11:52)
The shipper understood what we were trying to do and they were open. Yeah, go talk to my carriers, sell them your product. If that's going to make them better at their job, we're aligned. But then, there was a lot of lack of trust, of understanding of financial products. Then when they accept...

Mack Meyer (11:57)
Yeah.

Amen.

Mm-hmm.

Jaime Tabachnik (12:12)
and they were interested in the product, onboarding them and getting all the documentation from informal and small carriers, was a nightmare. So it was a tough period of time.

Mack Meyer (12:20)
I was going to ask that

this this initial group, most of these smaller carriers are relying manually on sheets of paper, correct? Or something along these lines? What was the process like at first? Were you guys just saying, send me a WhatsApp? I'll upload it yourself manually because these guys were going to log into what you

Jaime Tabachnik (12:37)
Yeah.

With this, we were able to learn of the complexities of a scaling by going directly to the carriers. We learned that the aggregator or the load generator, the shipper, the broker understood crisp, like had a very crisp understanding of the value proposition.

Mack Meyer (12:51)
Mm-hmm.

Jaime Tabachnik (12:57)
So we designed a product to process the aggregators payments and still offer the credit and the cash advance to the carrier. But talking to a much more sophisticated company that one had a better risk profile and two was like much more efficient to onboard. So.

Mack Meyer (13:17)
Mm-hmm.

Jaime Tabachnik (13:19)
When we learned about that and we pivoted a go-to market, instead of going directly to the carrier, we pivoted to going through the carrier's customers. That was one of the pivotal moments in Solvento's story that where we started finding product market fit and really started scaling our offer.

Mack Meyer (13:39)
So if I heard that correctly, basically going to the carriers directly was a lot more efficient than going through the shippers. Opposite. Okay.

Jaime Tabachnik (13:46)
No, I'm sorry, I was not clear.

first, like we did get access to the carriers through the shipper, but they only gave us like their contacts and we needed to do one sale one by one to sell to them one by one. But then we changed our strategy into selling the product and embedding our solution into the payment flows of the shipper. we only needed to

Mack Meyer (13:52)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Okay.

Mmm

Jaime Tabachnik (14:12)
flow the shipper implementer products and with that we were already embedded and paying to carriers and with that ownership of the payment flow it would be much easier to expand and offer credit to the carriers.

Mack Meyer (14:16)
Right. The carriers would follow.

bend.

Because the carriers will do what they need to get the business versus the other way. Okay, so you kind of hit on this, but I guess you can be a little bit more explicit if you have something to add, but this digitization, I think you're in the heart of it. How much has it changed, even since your time at your family's company and then you had your marketplace? Has it improved quite a bit or are we still in the first couple of innings of really becoming digitalized in these SMEs?

Jaime Tabachnik (14:31)
Yes, absolutely. Exactly.

I do see...

more openness and I think there's a change in leadership going on in SMEs where new generations are starting to lead these companies and the appetite of implementing state-of-the-art technology is starting to shift because previous generations were much more skeptical and

Mack Meyer (15:01)
Mmm.

Mm-hmm.

Jaime Tabachnik (15:15)
slow and closed and like it was much bigger challenge to get them to change the status quo with this new cohort of leaders. I think we're just starting to this technology and the digitization adoption accelerate.

Mack Meyer (15:22)
Mm-hmm

Yes, it's the classic. I built it this way. I'm going to stay this way until I'm done. Now. Now there's a new generation.

Jaime Tabachnik (15:38)
100%. Yeah.

Why, why fix something that's not broken? You know, that type of mindset. Yeah.

Mack Meyer (15:43)
Exactly. And

in some ways, it's fair. They've built something of theirs and sure, but maybe not forever. I think you would do a good job explaining this in my research before this. You have many players in the freight ecosystem in Mexico and also internationally. But on the freight side, you have shippers, which are the traditional manufacturer retailers. Then you have these freight forwarders that I guess you could say like are a flex port, correct? And then you have carriers, 3PL's and then you have these brokers.

Where does Solvento come in and can you break down the nuances between each? mean, because sometimes there is a blur between some.

Jaime Tabachnik (16:17)
Yes.

So we can get complex. We have like end customers who, and I'm talking about the B2B space. So an end customer would be the entity that displays goods on the shelf for to be consumed by the consumer. So you can picture an end user as

Mack Meyer (16:19)
Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Jaime Tabachnik (16:39)
a Walmart or any retailer. Then we have the manufacturers. Manufacturers are the entity that manufacturer transform any type of goods to be sold to an inducer. Then we have logistics. In the logistics vertical, we have different type of logistics entities that

Mack Meyer (16:46)
Mm-hmm.

Jaime Tabachnik (17:04)
One type is the famous 3PL, a third party logistics company. There's different nuances, but mostly it's a company that offers logistics services to retailers or manufacturers or distributors that include warehousing and freight services.

Mack Meyer (17:16)
for a

both.

Perfect.

Jaime Tabachnik (17:24)
And I say both. Also, a retailer can hire a 3PL because a retailer can have the stores that are open to the public, but they also have distribution centers and warehouses that they need to manage and they need to distribute all that inventory throughout their networks. So that's also why an end user also has the need of logistics services, of warehousing and distribution.

Mack Meyer (17:46)
also passed the...

Right.

Jaime Tabachnik (17:52)
And then we have the carrier world, so trucking companies and carriers are companies that offer the services of moving goods from one point to another. And there's obviously different transportation mode carriers. have road, ocean, air, rail, and then you have the different business models. some carriers that

Mack Meyer (18:06)
Of

Mm-hmm.

Jaime Tabachnik (18:13)
own their entire fleets or that have, and there's other nuances of how they operate. There's some carriers that own the trailers, but outsource the trucking with owner-operators. there's like, different flavors of it. Because you'll have, sometimes you have an operation of wall, like Nestle that wants to

Mack Meyer (18:15)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

You could go what's the...

Mm-hmm.

Jaime Tabachnik (18:37)
move goods and deliver to Walmart and Nestle hires a 3PL, the 3PL hires a carrier, the carrier hires an owner operator So you have many players involved in a single, moving a single load.

Mack Meyer (18:45)
Yeah, and that and that's just within

freight and then you can have that for air and rail as well, correct? so for you guys you're focusing on the freight and then who would be your primary customer or there's multiple from what I'm understanding here, right? You can really work.

Jaime Tabachnik (18:53)
Yes. Yes.

Yeah, our

ideal customer is like our end user is the SME carrier. Right. We the problem that we are solving is the liquidity pains for the carrier. And how do we get to the carrier? Our go to market and our carrier acquisition motion is through the carrier's customers. So we do it through

Mack Meyer (19:07)
Yep. Perfect. That's working with a 3PL maybe. The for the carrier.

Mm-hmm.

Perfect.

Jaime Tabachnik (19:28)
3PL but also through shippers because there's a big number of shippers that hire carriers directly and don't operate through a 3PL.

Mack Meyer (19:30)
Mm-hmm.

Okay.

Gotcha. For various reasons, which we don't need to get into. Okay, so that's the go-to-market. That was a great breakdown. And these carriers, to be broad, basically have to accept these payment terms. They don't have much credit access. They're basically just trying to keep their customers and get business. So they're left with just being kind of hung out to dry, correct? And they're super fragmented.

Jaime Tabachnik (19:42)
or various research. Yes.

It's hyper fragmented. to give you a quick number, and I think this is very similar in many geos, but there are over 200,000 registered carriers in Mexico and over 95 % of them have less than 30 trucks. So it's hyper fragmented. Most of them are SMEs or even micro companies of a couple of trucks.

Mack Meyer (20:26)
Mm-hmm.

And these 95 % most of them would be national only or also moving product or goods. Okay.

Jaime Tabachnik (20:35)
Most of them national only. There's

a tendency, obviously, right now, things are getting more uncertain with the current geopolitical situation. But most of the Mexican carriers move freight nationally. There is a tendency of carriers to develop the capabilities to also do cross-border operations and offer cross-border services to 3DLs and shippers.

Mack Meyer (20:42)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Okay, great. that's clear. And now you get into this challenge that these carriers have of this liquidity. How do you guys go about with this underwriting? Because I'm sure these smaller freight companies that have five or six trucks, how much is their underwrite?

Jaime Tabachnik (21:13)
Part of our strategy of going through the carrier customer is that we underwrite the carrier's customer. So we take on the risk to start originating credit to the carrier of its customer, which we've learned that it is a better quality of risk. But our vision is through the data that we're compounding and the data asset.

Mack Meyer (21:20)
Mmm.

Jaime Tabachnik (21:39)
that we are building, we're going to be able to originate credit products directly to the carrier and help them build that credit history and understand what are the drivers that drive credit worthiness in this space.

Mack Meyer (21:55)
And that data will come through their customer, which you're going to, rather than the carrier itself.

Jaime Tabachnik (21:59)
Exactly.

Mack Meyer (22:00)
Yeah, and before we get into some of the basic geopolitical challenges now with these tariffs, if you just look at the national opportunity with freight, it's still quite big, right? So there isn't this need to be cross-border as much, or is that maybe me misunderstanding that for you guys with the carriers?

Jaime Tabachnik (22:17)
Mexico's economy

relies on trucking and the Mexican economy on its own is big enough and it's big enough of a problem for us to build something huge. Obviously, the tailwinds of the integration into the United States help a lot and the tariff

Mack Meyer (22:19)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Jaime Tabachnik (22:37)
situation and all the uncertainty that it's bringing is having a direct impact on economic growth, which has a direct impact on amount of loads that are moved by carriers, which impacts sole ventures addressable market. So I'm not going to say that we like to see this negative impacts into the industry that we're serving, but

Mack Meyer (22:52)
Yeah.

Jaime Tabachnik (23:00)
answer your question, the size of the market without the integration into the United States is big enough to build a huge business.

Mack Meyer (23:01)
Yeah.

Huge company.

and to push it further, it would be almost silly to think that this is forever, right? In some ways, do you see this as more of a short-term challenge and not as much a macro significant problem in the years to come?

Jaime Tabachnik (23:21)
Yes.

I think this is a negotiation tactic and I think both sides are going to sit down on a table and come to an agreement and there's going to potentially be a renegotiation on the treaty. And hopefully that happens sooner than later because I think what's the most painful and hurtful thing is uncertainty. If tariffs are going to be enforced and

would be better just to know about it and go forward to the next chapter with that idea, embedded into our minds. And, the uncertainty is what hurts most. So hopefully we can get into the table and get to one agreement and renegotiate whatever needs to be renegotiated.

Mack Meyer (23:49)
Thank

Yeah.

Yeah.

Jaime Tabachnik (24:08)
and we can continue to focus in what matters.

Mack Meyer (24:11)
Exactly. The uncertainty allows nobody to make decisions for a long horizon. So then you're stuck in limbo. Okay. Just, guess to hit on like the last couple of things here, obviously very impressive what you guys did last year. It shows what you guys are doing from traction and growth standpoint. I think you guys did a series A you know, something around $12 million with that. How do you plan to utilize this, this capital to grow your team, to improve the product and what are you looking forward most?

Jaime Tabachnik (24:15)
Yeah, it paralyzes everyone. Yes.

Mack Meyer (24:38)
in the next 12 months.

Jaime Tabachnik (24:39)
We're looking to accelerate growth in a very focused way. So with this new capital, we are able to unlock additional dry powder to go out there, acquire more load generators and automate and extend more cash advances to carriers, which is what we want to prove. And then in addition to that, we are going to ship

some very interesting experiments that are related to freight intelligence. We're taking advantage of the big amounts of data we have compounded through time and productizing it to offer transparency and visibility to the different players in both sides of the market to make better decisions and also start experimenting with additional financial products for carriers.

So it's, I would say, a year of accelerating growth and consolidation of our core offering and starting and getting signals of the additional products that are going to be added into our platform.

Mack Meyer (25:44)
Gotcha. two things, and they're pretty open-ended. I'll go with the more open-ended, challenging one first. What's been the biggest mistake since you started Solvento?

Jaime Tabachnik (25:54)
It's a very good question. There's been many.

has to be sweet and I personally

had all the signals of a customer that was going through financial stress. And I let my personal relationship with the company get a... Like I allowed it to blur my judgment. And I allowed the company to continue using our credit products and offering it to their carriers And that ended up costing us...

Mack Meyer (26:17)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Jaime Tabachnik (26:27)
it was a very

Mack Meyer (26:27)
Yeah.

Jaime Tabachnik (26:27)
expensive lesson. So I would definitely put that lesson on top of my list. And the biggest learning is one, we need to make sure that we're not biased when we make decisions. We need to have our business mindset and leave all feelings out of the way when we make business decisions. And we need to recognize when it's time to

Mack Meyer (26:33)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Jaime Tabachnik (26:50)
how they say bring an adult to supervise the party. And I

think that it took us a little bit longer than what we needed to bring a very senior chief risk officer to the team.

Mack Meyer (26:58)
Yeah.

Well, it's interesting you say that, Jaime, because it's very intriguing when I hear that, because it takes a lot of self-awareness. Some people would maybe even be in put the responsibility in another department. But it seems like you were very clear, like, this can't happen again. And at the end of the day, it's your responsibility. It's your company. Yeah, last thing. What are you most proud of to date?

Jaime Tabachnik (27:17)
appreciate it.

I'm not proud of the talent density in our team today. that's something that for me sometimes is surreal to be surrounded of people that are so knowledgeable and talented. sometimes the imposter syndrome hits I'm very proud of the team.

that we're assembling So that's definitely number one on what makes me proud.

Mack Meyer (27:41)
Yeah.

Awesome. That's all on my end. I appreciate the time, Jaime. And as always, grateful for your access and friendship over the last few years.

Jaime Tabachnik (27:52)
Absolutely, my man. It was a pleasure and let's do it again. Thanks so much. Yeah, let's do it. Bye bye.

Mack Meyer (27:53)
Yes, yes, we were due to catch up. Yep. Bye.